Introduction to the Marketing Lyfe Podcast Ep. 23

Episode Number 23 of the marketing life podcast. Today we have John Hunting House on the show. He’s an expert in digital marketing with Facebook ads. So he talks about three things in this show. He talks about filtering your lists. He talks about one of his KPIs per delivery and one of the big takeaways for him was testing, testing, testing. So let’s not waste any longer dive into the show and learn from John.

Introduction with John Huntinghouse

Taylor: Okay guys, today we got John Hunting House on the show. So John, tell us your backstory on how you got into on my marketing.

John: Yeah, so it’s kind of an interesting backstory. So originally the goal was I was going to go to medical school when I got accepted in medical school and that was kind of the plan. But I ended up having a fortuitous lunch meeting actually with one of my buddies. And he kind of just asked me a random question that wasn’t meant to be life changing, but he was just like, what are the things that you study when you don’t have to study anything at all? And I realized I had nothing to do with the medical field. And so then I spent the next about six years not really knowing exactly what I wanted to do. Um, but then I ended up going to, and I took an entrepreneurship class up at the University of Utah, which kind of got me started running my own blog, kind of running my own social media fan page. And that’s kind of where I got started and kind of grinding my teeth in the specifically Facebook and Facebook marketing. And uh, that’s kinda where it grew. And so, and now, you know, running a over here as the director of digital marketing at epic. But yeah, it all started from medical school, pivoted wilderness, and then started my own thing. And that’s kind of where it grew.

Key Performance Indicators for Campaigns on Facebook

Taylor: That’s awesome man. So your bread and butter’s Facebook. Yeah. So like at the beginning, before we even get dove into this podcast, I talked about some of your KPIs. So what are some of your KPIs with your different campaigns that you’re running on Facebook?

John: Yeah. So the different KPIs when you’re looking at each campaign, obviously their clients specific and their industry dependent. So a click through rates or cost per acquisitions or whatever that might be. It’s kind of a very, and fluctuate a across, you know, depending on what client you’re looking at. But one of the things that we obviously look for mainly because we want to drive sales and for most of our clients that’s their main KPI is just cost for joining. And so that’s why we kind of focus on now how we judge that is usually based on a baseline, right? So what their previous, uh, you know, either agency or the previous efforts landed them. Uh, we tried to improve them and we kind of look at them to see if we can increase some, depending on what you’re looking at, anywhere from if they’re doing it in house or just like, like a freelancer or someone. Typically we can, you know, improve those KPIs roughly around 40 to 50%. Like we can decrease their cost per acquisition. Um, but one of the main things that we actually at is, um, frequency actually. Uh, which is, and the frequency, it’s actually something that holds steer referring to his delivery as well. The delivery.

Taylor: Okay. Right.

John: Um, and, and the reason why we look at that is because it’s actually one of the metrics that holds across pretty much any industry. Like any industry, any company like no matter what you’re looking at, um, there’s this frequency cleft, which is basically when whenever the ads get to or frequency around for, um, it literally like your positive Roaz and your positive, um, you know, ROI on it doesn’t even matter how good the campaign is or how amazing it’s running. Like usually when it hits for it falls off this cliff and like it literally doesn’t go anywhere. Um, and oftentimes most of the campaigns that we’re running into that like have issues, um, it’s because their frequency is like through the roof and it’s like, okay, you clearly need to work on this kind of change up. The creatives change up the targeting. Um, cause one of the biggest things when it comes to Facebook is Facebook’s API and their AI is super powerful and it’s come a long ways from when they first launched it.

Um, but what happens is, you know, you might create a look alike audience or a custom audience and you, your initial results are actually really good and you’re like, oh yeah, this is awesome, but you forget how fast it deplenishes. Um, that core audience. And then they have to go to the next year or the tertiary tier and then, and then these audiences become less and less receptive as you go over time. And so one of the biggest mistakes that I’ve found for most Facebook marketers and even a mistake that we make is not keeping on top of that, you know, and kind of replenishing our audiences and making sure that we’re constantly tweaking and changing it so that once we kind of run through that core audience, that we’re not just constantly now in the fourth, fifth, seventh degree, uh, out. Um, and yeah, that’s usually, you know, wild their KPIs are industry specific. Um, one thing that’s kind of across the board is really kind of keeping a close eye on your audience. And, uh, once you’ve tapped out of your, that core audience, making sure your frequencies kind of relatively low.

Remarketing Campaigns for Your Audience and Your Time Limit to Remarket

Taylor: That’s awesome. I really like that. I can even say that for me. Like there’s something about passing like four or five, like you’re, like you said you’d just goes off a cliff. Um, but I actually want to pick your brain now about this. So as far as like remarketing goes, would you say four is still that magic number or do you let your remarketing campaigns go past four?

John: Uh, no, uh, that’s, that’s why I love the frequency KPI is cause it’s actually a fairly centered, even with free marketing campaigns now with three marketing campaigns, you might not necessarily update your targeting so much. Um, you know, you might use a 30 day, you know, um, anyone who’s visited the website in the last 30 days, you might keep that targeting option in there. Uh, but simply updating your creatives or the messaging. One of the things I actually do. One of the things I actually liked to do a lot at conferences that I speak at is I’ll kind of go through one or two slides and then after about the third slide, I’ll just restart and then just go right back into the exact same three slides again. And then I’ll do it. I’ll start a third time. And what happens is like, you know, the second time when I restart, everyone’s like, what’s going on?

Like this is weird. Like I’m feeling a little Deja Vu and like the third time they’re just done. They’re just like, this is ridiculous. I’m now the reason I do that sometimes when it comes to conferences, it’s just show how quickly ads can get repetitive, right? And I was like, I’m doing this live in front of you and you can see me. We’re interacting. And the minute I get to the third time, the third time you’ve seen the same presentation, you, you’re, you’re tuned out, you’re done. You’re like, okay. The second time you were like, I don’t know what’s going on. Um, but now imagine that’s like the 17th or 21st or 52nd, you know, um, just to really drive home the fact that, you know, when people start to see your ad, um, really quickly, it either worked or it didn’t. And so you really need to kind of keep up and stay on top of the messaging, sat on top of the creative. Um, you know, with remarketing, retargeting, that’s fine. You can keep on retargeting them, uh, but take a different approach, take a different angle because at some point, either the ad worked and that’s cool and you’ve got an acquisition or it didn’t. And, but either way, now you’re targeting an audience that either work or it didn’t and then it needs to be updated and refreshed. So,

Facebook Marketing Success by Retargeting Your Audience and Remarketing

Taylor: Yup. I love it. Yeah. Amen. Hallelujah. That awesome was fire. I don’t even need to say anymore. Like you took that away. So, so what was a lot of people have a hard time talking about this one. But the reality of this is for me is online marketing. You have tons of successes and you have tons of failures. Yep. So what are some of the failures or what’s one failure that stands out that you had happened, but you learned something from it and made it made a change?

John: Yeah. So we actually had a client that we were running ads and we were just kind of doing, they had an awesome email lists, you know, and they actually just simply want them to do like a kind of a retargeting and create a lookalike audience. And, and when we’re looking at that, we’re like, okay, cool. That’s awesome. You know, kind of standard Facebook marketing. And so we created a, uh, you know, we started off with a 1% lookalike audience and we’re running through this and, um, and we’re generating leads, you know, and we’re killing it and we’re like, man, costs per leads. Amazing. And we’re just, we’re destroying this and this. So we’re super excited.

Taylor: Doesn’t that just feel so good when that’s happening?

John: Yeah. And so you’re like, oh yeah, this is awesome. And so we ended up having our first client meeting and we’re super stoked where, you know, we’re super excited and we kind of sit down and he’s just like their crap, all of it. Like all of the leads are crap and everything that we’re following is not working. And I don’t know if we want to kind of continue with this. And I’m just thinking like, you know, I’m kind of blind sided and I’m just like, wait, what? Like w like here, I thought we were doing so amazing. Um, and then so we had to kind of like blew up in our face. The client was super unhappy, you know, with all of this ad spin. Yeah, you generate super low cost per lead. But ultimately I’m looking for sales and you didn’t, you know, none of that worked.

Facebook Marketing Fail: Not Following Up With Leads

John: Now part of that, obviously it’s internal, like their sales process. And that’s one of the biggest frustrations that I’ve dealt with is people not following up with the leads and just being like, well, what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to do with all these leads? Yeah, exactly. And, and, and there was definitely a component to that. Um, but one of the things, actually one of the biggest insights that we actually pulled from this, um, was, you know, we’re like, okay, there’s always a issue, right? There’s always an internal like sales process, what’s the followup process? But really that’s, you know, we can make those suggestions, but that’s kind of out of our hands. So we’re just like looking internally, okay, how can we improve the quality of leads? Um, and you know, what might be going on here because it’s clearly it’s resonating, you know, clearly we’re getting leads, you know, they’re filling out the forms are doing things.

And so, um, then we started to look at our lookalike audience and we’re like, what is this based off? Well, it’s based off the customer lists that they have. So we’re making a lookalike audience, which makes sense, right? Like, you’re going to take your existing customer base and then you’re gonna create a lookalike audience around that. But what we ended up learning is that most of their current clientele is crap. Like, they’re actually really bad clients, you know, really bad customers. Um, they actually, you know, it’s that whole 80, 20 rule where, and they take up 80% of the time, but like, really, they, they’re not buying a lot there, you know, they’re barely interested. They’re penny pinchers. It’s true. And then we realized, okay, well this is a problem. Like one of the issues is like, a lot of times you’ll hear people say like, you know, Facebook marketing doesn’t work.

Um, but really it’s not that it doesn’t work and it actually, it just works too well and you really have to give it parameters. You have to like tell it exactly what you want to do. And so what did we ask him to do? We asked Facebook to generate as many leads at the lowest cost per leads, and we’re like, find this audience. And that’s exactly what it did. But what we realize is that that audience sucked and it was bad. Like the initial data that we gave to Facebook was bad. Um, and so one of the things that when you’re creating lookalike audience or retargeting audiences, you don’t want to retarget all of them. You don’t want it to re, um, remarket to all of them or create a look alike audience across all of them. Well, you want to do is take that customer list and then really figuring out, okay, what is that top tier within that list?

Right? I’m like, what is that 20%, what does that 10% of that audience that we really want to hone in on? Um, and then then that’s Kinda what we did. And so we took it, we refined it, created a new lookalike audience based on their, the top performing, you know, customers. And then we started to see, you know, the cost per leads increased slightly, but then they were actually making sales, right. And ultimately our cost per sale was dramatically decrease. It was almost a tenfold decrease. And so they were just like super excited. And then, you know, it was probably one of the biggest failures out first. Well, initially we thought it was a second success, but then we had that meeting. It kind of seemed like a failure at first, but then we realized, okay, it was one big insight that came from it. So it’s like, yeah, just, you can’t just assume that you want to mimic all of the customers. You only actually want to mimic a few of the customers and really focusing on refining that list.

Marketing Success with BuzzFeed, Facebook Marketing, and Internal Articles

Taylor: Gotcha. So just to recap, refine the list. Yep. Really make sure you have good people on that list when you’re going out and retargeting or building audiences. I really liked that. So what was like one of your first online marketing successes? So you said you started working with the news at Ksl and then you got an online marketing. So it was that first little initial I can do online marketing.

John: Uh, yeah, actually, um, the, the first initial thing that actually started was, was actually our own thing, right? It was my own creating our own Facebook pages. And, um, what happened is it started off as a hobby. It was not a big deal. It was just a simple little, a side hobby that we were starting. Um, but our first success is when we actually made the front page of buzzfeed. Um, and so we kind of created this little community. Um, and then when we, you know, we kind of submitted it to buzzfeed and it just like took off like wildfire, you know, and then all of a sudden it crashed our website. Like I don’t even know how many times. And it was insane. Like we ended up upgrading from the basic shared hosting to, you know, we had to get our own dedicated server just to handle the volume of website traffic that was coming in. So yeah, it was, it was, it was crazy. It was a, it was pretty nuts. And so, um, and now that’s actually grown to, you know, for that platform. And you know, we have over 250,000 fans on Facebook, you know, and we get about a million page views a month on it. And that was kind of the, that was kind of the first formal foray into online marketing and leveraging, you know, other publishers and other publications and leveraging the power of social media to grow and build the brand.

Taylor: That’s awesome man. So would you are creating articles then and then it got picked up by buzzfeed? Is that what happened?

John: Yeah, so we are creating our own internal articles. And then what we did is we actually just created an native organic, it was a community post on buzzfeed and then we just kind of shared it with our fans and some other influencers that we’re hearing the, uh, here in Utah. And then what ended up happening was that there, buzzfeed’s own internal algorithm started to skyrocket. And so then, uh, ended up because of the amount of press and an amount of traction it was getting, it just naturally it became on what’s trending and then it ended up ultimately on the front page of buzzfeed’s. So, yeah.

John Huntinghouse: “Share your process of how you got to your success”

Taylor: That’s awesome. That’s really cool. So diving into the next question, um, so I called this the Grand Slam for success. So basically those campaign, like that one story that you’re just, you always fall back on it because you’re so proud of it, you know, with, with your success. So what is that Grand Slam for you? Some people call it a slam dunk, but yeah.

John: Yeah. So I mean, you know, one of our clients that we were working with, um, you know, we’ve had for a little over a year or so and you know, initially whenever you’re, you know, one of the problems with most marketers is like they feel, you know, no matter how much knowledge you have of a certain topic or a certain area, like you just like, there’s just things you don’t know and there’s just variables. There’s unknown. Um, there’s just a ton of things you have to go through and iterate and that’s why, you know, like, I really hate it. Like one of my biggest pet peeves is like going to conferences and you know, all, you hear all these marketers like highlighting all of this success stories and like they just skip over. Like, probably the most important part was the iterate the iterative process of how they got to that success. Um, and so like, sharing this success, it’s no different, right? Like, like it took almost a year of iterating and, and fine tuning and understanding the client, understanding us, understanding their audience. Um, but what we were able to do is, uh, we were actually able to take their online cost for joint, which was already a record. So like when we first bought them on, like we were providing success, um, but you know, we’re running at like $30 per join, uh, which was kind of there, you know, target market, you know.

Taylor: So when you say join, like they’re joining a group or just, uh, maybe around about, of what industry they’re in.

John: Yeah, they’re in the, they’re in the fitness industry. So, um, but yeah, there, you know, it’s like this $30 per join and what we were able to view, it’s like now a year later, I’m running, you know, with all of that knowledge and understanding of where we’re going, uh, we were able to bring it from $30 to $60 per join. Um, and we’re in the row as of around 45 50. And so like, we’re getting a 50 x, you know, row as him and it’s just like insane. It’s just killing it and it was awesome. So,

Tips and Tricks on Building Knowledge in Marketing and Testing

Taylor: yeah. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely crushing it. Um, would you be willing to share some of the small tips and tricks of what you did to make that come about?

John: Yeah, so I mean, the biggest key that I’ve learned is that most marketers actually don’t do is, you know, they create, like if this hypothesis, you know, they, they create a test and everybody constantly talks about experimentation and experimenting and Learning, um, which is cool and which is the right thing to do. But nobody ever builds upon the knowledge. Like they don’t keep track of their knowledge, they don’t keep track of what works, what didn’t work, and they don’t keep it for a long period of time. So what ends up happening is they’re like, all right, let’s see whether or not this works or not, and they test something out and it either worked or it didn’t work. And then they’re like, okay, well let’s just go on. And then I guess again, the problem with this is the shotgun approach is that you never build on your knowledge, right?

And so then six months down the line, eight months on line, a year down the line and you’re no better. You’re no better off because you’re constantly just guessing. And while at the beginning of a campaign you like, you have to start somewhere. I’m a year into it, six months in, two or three months into it, and you should be, that kind of paint should absolutely be more refined. But what marketers don’t really do, like one of my biggest things that I’ve found that they don’t do is they really don’t keep track. Um, and if you look at, uh, detectives, or if you look at the researchers up at a university who’s doing medical research or whatever, they keep track of all of their experiments and then they, you know, they have a big board and like, as her going down, you know, third, fourth, 15th experiment, they’re looking back at experiments one through 14, you know, and they’re looking at the overall pictures and like little details along the ways and any insights that they can pull so that the 15th experiment is that much better, that much more refined.

Um, and honestly like, there’s all little tips and tricks, you know, and um, but ultimately like winning ad campaigns is an iteration process. Like, um, you know, we’re all looking for that silver bullet. You know, that, that one thing that will just change all of our campaigns. But the reality is successful marketers are successful over the longterm because they keep track of their wins and losses. So they understand where their, um, they physically write them down and they can see it. They can visually see it, um, and the, as well as mentally understand it. Um, and most marketers that I know actually do a horrible job at this, um, they usually they have a winter loss and they’re like, okay, well if your hypothesis is whether or not to see if it worked or not, you will always see that, right? Like it either worked or it didn’t work, but it doesn’t help you in the learning process.

And the only way you do that is by keeping track of it and then making a specific hypothesis, meaning that I expect when I do this, I expect to see this. And then whether that either happened or it didn’t, and then you break it down, why didn’t it happen? Why did it happen? Pros and cons. And then you kind of build out your new question, your new hypothesis, you a new test is built out of your original failure or success as opposed to just shotgunning. And it’s like, all right, well we tried that it worked or didn’t work. Let’s try something new. And then constantly doing that because six months down the road, you’re no better off on it because you never built upon your knowledge.

Speed Round with John Huntinghouse

Taylor: Love it. If I had to recap that. Yeah. I speak a lot about this. Like I, I talk a lot about this. It’s just testing. Yeah. Like you said, like testing, AB testing, split testing, testing your landing pages, like just testing everything all the time, learning from your mistakes and making those adjustments. Yup. So I love it. I love that you do that. I love that you taught that. So just to wrap this up, um, we’re going to go into the speed round. Okay. Um, so when you’re not doing online marketing, you know, what are you doing for fun?

John: I really am a big sports guy, so I’m either watching NFL football or watching the Utah Jazz,

Taylor: Amen. Utah jazz updates in the industry.

John: Um, how are keep on top of that? All right.

Updates on Facebook Marketing

Taylor: Like just any updates on in the Facebook world, Instagram, moral, online marketing world, any updates on your end?

John: Uh, yeah, no, I mean it’s, it’s mainly the constantly changing algorithm, right? And just really focus on more of the storytelling engagement aspect of it as opposed to just the strictly selling part.

Favorite Marketing Book

Taylor: Um, yeah. So tell stories don’t just sell a favorite marketing book.

John: Uh, so it’s not necessarily a marketing book per se. Um, but creativity inc by Ed Catmull is by far my, it’s, it’s my favorite book, um, because it’s basically a story of how Pixar came to be. Um, but he kind of talks about the creative process. Um, and I love it. It’s absolutely great because every time you create a new campaign, every time you create, um, you know, a new client, you’re always doing something new. And so the process that he kind of goes into how Pixar does it is actually very similar to how we run our marketing campaigns. So

Favorite Thing About Marketing

Taylor: that’s awesome. So creative ink. Yeah. Creativity and creativity inc. Yep. Okay. Check that book out. And then favorite thing about all my marketing.

John: I absolutely love the ambiguity and the uncertainty. Like a lot of people like struggle with that and like, there’s so many options. There’s so many targeting options, so many audiences to hit. Uh, but that’s what I love. Like I love problem solving. I love the fact that there’s a bazillion challenges and that everything’s such a dynamic environment. The platforms are changing, the customers, uh, themselves are changing, their demands are changing, where changing. Um, but this constant moving and this constant cat and mouse game. Like I love it. Like I love problem solving, love chasing the results. Yeah, I do. It’s what I do.

Favorite Marketing Podcast

Taylor: So I think we all do. Um, favorite thing, favorite marketing podcasts or podcasts in general?

John: Yeah. So what, what’s, what’s funny is probably my favorite podcasts, um, ever actually. Um, well, and maybe I should go back. So it’s currently what I’m into, which is, it’s the cold podcasts, so it’s on him. It’s not a podcast at all or it’s sounded marketing podcasts at all. It’s totally fine. But what I love about this is one thing that I’ve learned is actually pulling insights from other industries or other areas. Um, and that’s actually how I found to innovate within marketing. Because when you’re constantly listening to marketing podcasts or marketing talking heads, what ends up happening is everybody kind of repeats the same thing over and over again. Um, but when you bring in something from other industries or something that’s completely tangental, um, you, I actually learned a lot. And so the cold podcast is actually a murder case, right? It’s an unsolved murder case and usually how does not even work with marketing. But again, my favorite part is, is problem solving. Like how they go about it. Well then you take the lessons learned from there and apply it to marketing and it’s like amazing. And so it’s kind of weird, just kind of like unconventional, but yeah, that’s kind of what I love.

Favorite Marketing Tool:

Taylor: Hey, if makes you get the results then yeah. Keep on listening, man. Um, favorite online marketing tool?

John: Probably my, that’s a good question. Um, probably my favorite tool is actually a buzz, um, simply because it gives me an idea of like what’s engaging, what’s, what’s, what’s resonating for certain brands. Um, but um, one of the most recent, um, oh, I just wanted this, I just found out about last week. Um, but I’ll, I’ll have to follow up with it, but it was like, uh, it’s, I think it’s mod now anyways. I can’t remember, but besides that, uh, it’s probably so,

Taylor: What advice would you give to every marketer in the world?

John: I would say, you know, besides the cliche of learning to become comfortable, always being uncomfortable, it’s just knowing that it’s okay not to know, right? Like that’s the beauty. That’s the essence of marketing is the fact that you’re thrown into an, an area that you don’t understand. Um, but those who are successful are not the ones who just know all the answers. They’re the ones who persevere. Those who actually get past where everyone else quit, right? When everyone else ends up, it’s like, well, this is not going to work. Or the clients don’t, you know, they’re just too frustrating. Or this product is just awful. Uh, the marketers that really innovative are the ones I take those massive challenges and continue to push through those walls. Right? Like that’s how innovation occurs. That’s how these new ideas and new tactics that can be applied to other places are. Like, when you run into a wall, what do you do? You know, like, do you end up quitting or do you end up pushing through it? So, um, but yeah, it’s a, it’s a marathon, not a sprint, you know, stop looking for the silver bullet.

Setting an Expectation and Helping the Client Understand Where Marketing Fits in the Overall Business Plan

Taylor: Amen to that one. Um, uh, last question. Um, what, like if you had a business owner sitting here right now and you know, he’s looking for online marketing services, what’s one of your big advice is that you give?

John: It’s really setting the expectation of understanding where marketing in general and digital marketing specifically falls in line with their overall business plan and understanding what it can do and what it can do. Um, and that it is, uh, it’s a team sport. This isn’t just like, Hey, marketing, you have to sell all our, all of our problems and because we can’t, like, we can’t do that. That’s not our role. That’s not what we do. Um, but there are things that we can do that we can kind of collaborate and work with, but really setting those expectations of understanding where marketing fits into your overall business plan. Um, and then just really honing in that, you know, that, that aspect of it. Um, so that they get, um, you know, so they don’t expect the world right out of the gate and understand that it is a process that you’re both going to learn and grow from.

Contact for John Huntinghouse

Tayor: Amen to that big thing with all my marketing, like from even my experiences, just setting expectations with clients is a huge thing. Just to make sure everyone’s on the same page and efforts are being done on both ends of the spectrum. So thanks for sharing that. So last thing, um, where do people find you?

John: Yeah, so mainly you can find me on linkedin. You can find me on Twitter. It’s just John Henning House. Um, you could also, you know, you, you can add me, you know, as a friend on Facebook or whatever, but really linkedin is kind of, my agile is a Facebook friend, but really my, my, my big from a professional standpoint is from linkedin. I’m super active on Linkedin and so I post quite a bit on there, so.

Taylor: Okay, awesome. Sounds good. Well, thanks for being on the show. I’ll thank you for having me. It’s awesome. Thanks John.


That’s going to wrap up episode number 23 so the big takeaways for me was Bill Terin your list. Go through, find out which leads are good inside those lists before you actually upload them into Facebook. One of the Kpis for delivery, just reminder for KPI stands for key performance indicator. Make sure your ads aren’t going past four with delivery. So in Facebook you can go in and hit a little box that has a dropdown and you can see the delivery of how many times people have actually seen your ads. So one of John’s big things with his KPIs is making sure the delivery doesn’t go past four. The next thing the he really touched on was testing. So he had a story that he talked about. They’ve been working with the client for a long time and they’ve been testing a lot of different things. So the more you test, the more adjustments you can make and the better your campaigns are going to get. So just a reminder, guys, don’t forget to hit that subscribe button. If you haven’t left a review on iTunes or anywhere, please do that. That’s just going to help me and help me get my podcasts out there even that much more. This reminder, again, I’m still working on this course. I promise it will be done sooner than later, but I will promise to keep cranking on it. Hope you guys love this episode and don’t forget to smile and work hard, hard

today, guys. Peace.

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